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Author Topic: Tarawih Prayers in church-- Allowed or Disallowed?  (Read 13047 times) Average Rating: 0
ghaws786
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« on: November 11, 2010, 06:53:37 PM »

As-salamu-alaikum all,

I just came across this news floating on the internet that a church had allowed Muslims to pray Tarawih prayers within their premises.. INSIDE THE CHURCH. The link is as under.

http://mohammadthalif.blogspot.com/2010/11/taraweeh-prayers-in-church-can-you.html

I also wanted to draw attention to the LOCKED TOPIC in the same forum (IS IT GUNAH TO WISH A NON_MUSLIM  ON HIS/ HER FESTIVAL) AND ITS FATWA by respected Mufti Sahab that What Fatwa will be imposed on these muslims and their act When non-muslims are allowing them to pray inside their churches?

Whether you call those muslims who PRAYED in Church as Kaafir/ MUSHRIKS/ BIDDATI or What OR

Will you change your point of View on your verdict? OR

You will still say that Wishing Non-Muslims on their festivals is Gunah? Please clarify?
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« on: November 11, 2010, 06:53:37 PM »

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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2010, 08:38:57 PM »

Walikum Assalaam Wa Rehamtullahe Wa Barkathu.,
Welcome brother Ghaws it was nice to have you back..

First condition of Salah or Namaz is Paaki. You have to be Clean and Paak.
The Place where you are praying should be clean and Paak.
In the church if you have people around who are drinking Wines, Eating Pork and their are statues of Jesus, Mother Marry around.

Do you think that Offering Namaz at that place should be allowed. Or will any sensible muslim wish to pray at such a place?

Salah is 100% Compulsory..Even if you are in a state of War or are far in a desert you have to pray...there is no Excuse for it..
But dont you think that Going to Church and praying in that environment better than that would be to pray at your home...

Allah has given you exceptions in most Extreme cases like if you dont find anything to eat and you would starve to death then
you can even eat pork and drink wine same way i guess if there is no place on earth where you can pray then i guess you can pray anywhere
but if you can pray at your home then whats the need to go to a CHURCH..


Do you think that if their are pictures of living beings around you your prayers are valid.?

Posting links from Internet has become a trend and i will give you more links and images of the Scholars from West.

Lady Imam is leading the prayers with men and women.. Is it Allowed..?


To Read more Visit :
http://kgn786.com/forum/index.php/topic,3488.0.html

Ladies praying in shorts. With no Head covering.


To Read more Visit :
http://kgn786.com/forum/index.php/topic,8581.0.html

If you say that we Leave our Islamic Scholars and Muftis and start taking examples from west as in links above then i m Sorry.
We do not agree with you nor the Scholars of the West which preach that We start praying in Churches.
Or a Women can lead prayers for men and women both standing in same row.
Or you can pray with your shoes on.


Our or I should say my point of view is the same which goes with our Islamic Scholars that say
Celebrating Christmas with Non Muslims is Not Allowed. Wishing them is Not Permissible and Non Muslims are not allowed Entry into our Masjids.

I can give you the exact definition of Masjid and its requirements but i dont want this post to get lengthy and people reading it will avoid it..
so if you need we can discuss this further also my friend.
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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2010, 08:38:57 PM »

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ghaws786
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« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2010, 10:12:51 PM »

Reply for brother with ID: soldier of ISLAM

As-salamu-alaikum everyone,

I think You did not understood my question properly. I wanted to ask the status of those people praying inside the church? That's it.. And you are giving me the conditions and circumstances of offering namaaz.They are both different things. please understand the question properly before you reply.

Moreover you also gave me a verdict that NON_MUSLIMS ARE NOT ALLOWED INSIDE THE MASJID. Where did you get this from? PLease QUOTE the REFERENCE.

Do you know that this is the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad sallao Alayhi Wassalam that he not only ALLOWED NON MUSLIMS INSIDE MAJID_E NABAVI BUT ALSO ALLOWED THEM TO PRAY ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN FAITH.

Similar things happens in the topic (IS IT GUNAH TO WISH NON_MUSLIM on HIS/HER festival). I asked the reference of book of LUGHAD regarding the defination from brother with the ID: MSMQASMI. HE never gave me any reply for my post MOREOVER THE ADMINISTRATORS LOCKED THE TOPIC WITHOUT ANY REASONS.

It seems like you guys are trying to IMPOSE your understanding of ISLAM to the people reading these post instead of letting everyone to discuss the topics and satisfying their concerns with the arguments of QURAN and AHADEES.

Wassalam,
YOUR BROTHER IN ISLAM.
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« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2010, 11:11:34 PM »

Reply to Brother ghaws786.

Walikum Assalaam Wa Rehamtullahe Wa Barkathu.

First i would like you to calm down and not get excited and read my reply again

Quote
"Allah has given you exceptions in most Extreme cases like if you dont find anything to eat and you would starve to death then
you can even eat pork and drink wine same way i guess if there is no place on earth where you can pray then i guess you can pray anywhere
but if you can pray at your home then whats the need to go to a CHURCH."

I have said that according to me if Church is the Only place available on earth where we can pray ONLY then a muslim should go and pray there.

Please refrain to put words in My Mouth.
We are no one to say is a Muslim Kafir, Mushrik or whatever.


If you want you can go and ask a Ahle sunnat wal jamaat scholar and he will tell you.
But I am sure you will believe your instincts and your understanding much above the Mufti or Scholar hence i have not quoted any Fatwaa or Opinion of Scholars.

Also please let me tell you i know that RasoolAllah  sal-lal-lahu alai hi wa sallam allowed Chirstians to be specific the King of Habsha and his companions to stay in Masjid e Nabvi and also granted them permission to pray according to their faith..(See i also follow youtube videos)

But Friend dont you understand a simple thing that those Christians were Guests of RasoolAllah  sal-lal-lahu alai hi wa sallam they had come to Medina and it was the Ikhlaaq and Noble character of our beloved prophet that Courteously Temporarily during their stay they were allowed to stay and pray in Masjid e Nabvi. It was because the King of Habsha had provided Refuge to Muslim when the pagans of  Makkah wanted to kill them. Moreover the King of HABSHA believed that RasoolAllah  sal-lal-lahu alai hi wa sallam was a Prophet of Allah.

It was not made a Rule.

RasoolAllah  sal-lal-lahu alai hi wa sallam did not tell muslims Ok if we have allowed Christians to pray in a Masjid then from tomorrow all the Sahabas are also allowed to pray in Churches.

This is wrong interpretation of the Incident to Please the Non Muslims and impose thoughts of one person on the entire Muslim World or i must say enteri Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaat.


Regarding the Topic which you are talking ample time was given for both the views to be put on and only after the Moderator consulted a Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaat Mufti his views were put on board and the Topic was locked as both the views were their and people were free to choose their view. I guess the Polling is still on and the results talk for themselves what the members think. Lets not merge the two topics again and derail this discussion also like the other one.

Quote

It seems that It seems like you guys are trying to IMPOSE your understanding of ISLAM to the people reading these post instead of letting everyone to discuss the topics and satisfying their concerns with the arguments of QURAN and AHADEES.

Brother the problem with you and your like minded people On the INTERNET is that they read a few hadees Online here and there..read a free quranic ayats..listen to a few CDs or youtube videos and start Challenging an AALIM or a MUFTI...

You forget that an Aalim or a Mufti has spent his entire life Learning, Reading and Understanding Quran, Hadees and Masale Masaails of Fiqh.
You just bluntly come and throw your views online and want all people reading to agree with it and appreciate it where as this is Not True.



Just by reading a Few Hadees byhearting a Few Quranic ayaats and going through a Few Videos online will not make you greater then a AALIM or a MUFTI.

Or You Announce here that you are the BIGGEST MOST INTELLIGENT AALIM of AHLE SUNNAT WAL JAMAAT and everybody should follow you..

What we are doing here is putting views of all the islamic scholars not only one and let the people decide.

After you have asked your question let me also ask you  a few things.
1. Is it permissible to offer Namaaz wearing pictures of live creatures.?
2. Is it permissible to offer Namaaz in a room which is full of statues and pictures.?
3. Is it allowed for a Muslim women to lead Jamaat having Male and Females..?

I would appreciate if you have a PEER please consult you PEERSAHAB b4 answering the questions...
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ghaws786
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2010, 05:14:05 AM »

Ha ha ha... it seemed like it's you got excited pretty quickly. Thanks for your announcement regarding me. You declared what I do not want to declare myself.

Coming directly to the topic; Brother you still did not understood my question and just beating around the bush.

First of all; I am not asking anything "ACCORDING TO YOU"; if you can prove anything from Quran and ahadees then speak up else just learn from the posts. Let the scholars speak up; who have spend their entire life in understanding Qur'an Hadees and Masle Masail of Fiqh. I want to learn from them.

Regarding the incident about habsha and christans inside the masjid-e nabvi.. brother I don't want to go that far. I am asking you a simple question.

Before accepting Islam on the hands of Prophet Muhammad Sallaho alayhi wasallam anyone who accept Islam is a NON believer.

These NON-BELIEVERS COME INSIDE the masjid-e Nabavi, then accept Islam and then become Muslims. I think most of the companions (may peace be on them all) CAME INSIDE MASJID-e-NABAVI in this state of NON-BELIEVERS and then become Muslims. This is common practice of Rasool-ullah sallao Alayhi Wassalam. So where does your RULE go now? Masjid-e Nabavi was open for everyone instead of Just Muslims.

Secondly, you are trying to say that a NON-MUSLIM is ONLY allowed to enter into Masjid if he is a guest or if the IMAM or caretaker of the Masjid has any obligation towards that person. So I will again say, THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE anything. This is not what our beautiful deen teaches us.

At last, I would appreciate if I hear the verdict from the scholars regarding my question. No need to deviate from the topic by posting unnecessary questions.

Wassalam,
Your Brother in Islam
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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2010, 11:59:14 AM »

Hehehehe...
My Dear Brother...Its so very clear in my reply that ACCORDING to me Namaaz in Church is Not allowed Only in case of Exception where there is no other way out only then it can be made allowed..

In my opinion you are just beating around the bust and have gone in an infinite loop repeating the same thing again and again.

Brother I would like to please Request you not to compare the Noble Companions of Prophet ( sal-lal-lahu alai hi wa sallam) and the King of Habsha with these Christians & Non Muslims of today.
Today is a completely different scenario. we can discuss that later in another thread if you want....

So if Masjid e Nabvi was opened in those days for all.. Are you suggesting that Today also Masjid e Nabvi should be open for All..
Christians, Hindus and all other Non Believers.. and Saudi Government has done a Gross mistake by Non Allowing Non Muslims in  Makkah and Medina?
Is this what you are pointing towards.

The Question which i have asked you are not unnecessary and they are very much related to this topic..
If you answer those question then you yourself would have answered your questions is Namaaz allowed in a church or not..

If brother ghaws786 is unwilling to answer please i would request other learned brother on forum to answer and help brother ghaws786 understand this simple issue...

After you have asked your question let me also ask you  a few things.
1. Is it permissible to offer Namaaz wearing pictures of live creatures.?
2. Is it permissible to offer Namaaz in a room which is full of statues and pictures.?
3. Is it allowed for a Muslim women to lead Jamaat having Male and Females..?



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Sayyed Noorie
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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2010, 12:05:04 PM »

Assalaamualycum Wa Rehamtullahe Wa Barkathu.,
we all know that We Muslims pray on Roads and footpaths on friday when the masjids are full.
Everywhere in the world..in india pakistan bangladesh uk saudi.
but only if the masjid is full then.

As per the question of praying in the church..if the prayers are being offered in Church compound where there are No statues of Virgin Mary or Pics of Jesus and angles flying and if its a clean and neat place then Prayers can be allowed in the church in emergency situation as per the link provided that the Masjid work was not completed in time..

But not inside the actual church were on every wall you see pictures and images of Angles, Mary, and Jesus.

would like to here more from other members..

And please would request the Admin not to lock this topic till we reach a conclusion.


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rahul_619
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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2010, 02:23:38 PM »

brother it is allowed as long as that place is clean and in front of you there is no statue picture etc just the wall etc then its allowed
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mushfique
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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2010, 02:29:01 PM »

Uss salaam wa alaikum,
Like to share one beautiful hadees sharif:
Sahi Bukhari 4.636
Narrated Abu Dhaar
I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Which  Masjid was built first?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Haram." I asked, "Which (was built) next?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Aqs-a (i.e. Jerusalem)." I asked, "What was the period in between them?" He replied, "Forty (years)." He then added, "Wherever the time for the prayer comes upon you, perform the prayer, for all the earth is a place of worshipping for you."

Sahi Muslim Sharif 251
Narrated AbuHurayrah
The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me; the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind; and the line of prophets is closed with me.

Prophet suallalahu alihe wa sallam said "Wherever the time for the prayer comes upon you, perform the prayer, for all the earth is a place of worshipping for you" and also "he earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind; and the line of prophets is closed with me" and now few people are saying NO a BIG no. Its better for me to stick with the words of the Prophet suallalahu alihe wa sallam rather than following my own NAFS.
Mushfique
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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2010, 02:32:53 PM »

Walaikum Assalaam Wa Rehmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu,

Brother - pehli baat to yeh k Deen main har aisi cheez jisko amal main laanay say koyee FITNA uth jaye us say parhez karna chahiye yani TAQWA ki raah ikhtiyaar karni chahiye - jab yeh cheezain Huzoor Nabi e Kareem Sallallaho Alaihay Wasallam - Sahaba e Kiram Ajmayeen - Tabayeen - Taba Tabayeen - Aulia Allah - Buzurgan e Deen aur aajkal k Ulama e Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaat k mukhtalif adwaar main nahen huween unki zarorat aaj kaisi par gayee

Brother yeh bata'ain k jab Allah Kareem nay yeh farma diya k
Yahood o Nasara tumharay dost nahen hain

Aur Huzoor Nabi e Kareem Sallallaho Alaihay Wasallam ka farman e paak hay k
AGAR AHL E KITAB (YAHOOD O NASARA) MAIN SAY KOI TUMHAIN SALAAM KARAY TO JAWAB MAIN KAHO WA ALAIK (only)

Kyun k walaikum assalaam kehnay say aap unpar salamti bhejaingay aur salamti sirf musalmanoon k liye hay k jab tak yahood o nasara main say koi islam qubool na karlay salamti nahen hosakti unpar.

To is hadees sharif ki roshni main yeh mafhoom huwa k basically Yahood o Nasara par Salaamti na bheji jaye ya unpar Salaamti nahen hay - to brother jab unpay salamti he nahen to unki woh jaga jahan tasaweer lagi hoon - jahan sharab pi jaati ho wahan par salamti kaisay ho sakti hay - Kia Allah Kareem nay dunya main hamari jaga mehdood kardi hay k hamain jaga he na mil rahee ho k hum wahan jakar apni namazin parhain

Brother - Yeh sab Kuffar - Yahood o Nasara ki saazishain hain k hum unkay saath khana peena shru kardain unkay ghalat kamon main shamil hokar apni aaqibat kharaab karlain - yeh to woh log hain jinhon nay Quran e Kareem ki surton k muqabil apni banayee huwe surtain bana di hain aur unko launch bhe kar diya hay to jo log Allah Kareem k paak kalaam k saath aisa kar rahay hoon unsay kiya bayeed ki jaasakti hay

Ab yeh baat note karlain k hum to woh fakhr e maujodaat o ummat hain k jinkay Sardar - Huzoor Nabi e Kareem Sallallaho Alaihay Wasallam par unkay ummatiyun par Zameen ka tamam gosha namaz k liye pak kardiya gaya hay magar iska matlab yeh to nahen jahan gandagi ho wahan namaz parhi jaye zahir hay k uskay liye Paak saaf jaga ka hona zaroori hay

Aur doosri baat jahan tasaweer (pics) aur kuttay (dog) maujood hoon wahan say rehmatain utha li jaateen hain to kia aap chahaingay k Church main ja kar namaz ada karain jahan ja baja Tasaweer maujood hoteen hain - jahan rehmat he nahen wahan namaz ka qiam kyun kar mumkin ho sakta hay

Brother Masjidain Allah Kareem ka ghar hay aur Allah Kareem nay Quran e Majeed main rishad farmaya k
MASJID WOH HAY JISKI BUNYAAD TAQWA PAR RAKHEE GAYEE HO

Jabkay Huzoor Nabi e Kareem Sallallaho Alaihay Wasallam nay farmaya k
Farz namaz k ilawa sunnaton aur nawafil ko ghar main ada karo unko qabr na banayo

to brother is say yeh pata chala k Namaz ki adaegi k liye Pak Saaf jaga ka hona zaroori hay ya us jagai ki bunyaad kam az kam Taqwa o Parhezgari par qaim ho - aur agar koyee church aisi tamam cheezon say paak hay to wahan Namaz parhi jaasakti hay

Kyun k SAJDA USI KA NAAM HAY JAB TUM HO SAAMNAY - Allah Kareem to har jaga maujood hay chahay woh Kaaba ho ya Kalisa ya Butkhana ya maikada -

Brother - Allah Kareem ki maarifat ka raasta to Huzoor Nabi e Kareem Sallallaho Alaiahy Wasallam say pata chalta - Buzurgan e Deen o Aulia Allah say pata chalta hay - muraad yeh k paak hastiyun say milta hay na k unsay jo Allah Kareem ko to maantay hoon par Allah Kareem ki na maantay hoon - Hazrat Syedna Isa Alaihay Wasallam ko Na'aouzobillah unka beta maantay hain aisay log Allah Kareem k raastay ko kia jaanain

Yeh mera apna view hay so plz don't mind
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ghaws786
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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2010, 03:05:41 PM »

As-salamu-alaikum everyone,

It's nice to hear some opinions here on this topic. Before further discussion, I want to point towards some facts in the posting.

1. First of all; this is a tarawih prayer. This means that there should be more than one Imam leading the prayer.

2. Those imams who are leading the prayer; obviously they are Hafiz-e Qur'an. There is no doubt about that.

3. Since they are hafiz-e Qur'an; they should also know the terms and conditions of offering namaaz.

4. Since Aalims are involved in leading prayers they should be careful of the Taqawah and the prayer hall in which they are offering the prayer.

Summing up everything that if all the conditions of prayers are met properly they can offer Namaaz inside the church. There is no harm in that.

Now, I wanted to ask to all those who have Polled "NOT ALLOWED"

What is the status of all those Muslims in Sharia, who have prayed inside the church? Are they considered Kaafirs/ Mushriks/ Biddati or they are considered MUSLIMS?

Wassalam,
Your Brother in ISLAM
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MUSTAKAHMED
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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2010, 03:50:44 PM »

Very good question. If church will  be clean as per our Islam theory then and after start praying in church there will be not allowed to pray as christian prayerhall there after only namaz will allowed.
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Sayyed Noorie
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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2010, 04:28:59 PM »

Wonderful Answer given by brother mamqasmi.. Jazakallah khayr for spending so much time and explaining so precisely..

Now taking things ahead.
Quote
1. First of all; this is a tarawih prayer. This means that there should be more than one Imam leading the prayer.
2. Those imams who are leading the prayer; obviously they are Hafiz-e Qur'an. There is no doubt about that.
3. Since they are hafiz-e Qur'an; they should also know the terms and conditions of offering namaaz.
4. Since Aalims are involved in leading prayers they should be careful of the Taqawah and the prayer hall in which they are offering the prayer.

Brother whatever a Hafiz e Quran does can not always be deemed right. There are many Hafiz e Quran who are Bd Aqeedah and they believe that Rasool Allah  sal-lal-lahu alai hi wa sallam is Mazallah Dead and we should not goto dargah and we should not celebrate Milaad and many other things.

Second there are many Scholars and Quran Hafiz from west who have considered it correct for a Lady Imam to lead prayers with men and women in her Jamaat. Which is not True. So please do not give examples of Scholars from the West who do not have any idea what they are doing in the name of Universal Brotherhood.


Quote
What is the status of all those Muslims in Sharia, who have prayed inside the church? Are they considered Kaafirs/ Mushriks/ Biddati or they are considered MUSLIMS?

There is no specific TITLE for a Muslim praying in a CHURCH...This Act is disliked by Scholars and Should not be done.

According to the Hanafi and Shaf'i schools, it is disliked to pray in such places in general.

As per the question of Brorther with ID Soldier of Islam.
Wa Alaykum Salaam

It is Makrooh Tahreemi to pray wearing clothes that have images of living things printed on them: wearing such clothes is prohibited even when not praying. (Dur-e-Mukhtaar ma'a Rad-dul-Muhtaar, V2, P502)

Having an image above your head (on the ceiling), on the place of sajdah, in front of you, or towards your left or right makes the prayer Makrooh-e-Tahreemi; having it behind you is also Makrooh but not as bad as the other cases.

Remember that commiting an act that it Makrooh-e-Tahrimi in namaz, makes it wajib to read it again. Please take care of all these things.

Hope this helps.



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Raziya Warsi
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« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2010, 05:56:57 PM »

wonderful reply given by brother Sayed Noorie..

this sums it all up

It is Makrooh Tahreemi to pray wearing clothes that have images of living things printed on them: wearing such clothes is prohibited even when not praying. (Dur-e-Mukhtaar ma'a Rad-dul-Muhtaar, V2, P502)

Having an image above your head (on the ceiling), on the place of sajdah, in front of you, or towards your left or right makes the prayer Makrooh-e-Tahreemi; having it behind you is also Makrooh but not as bad as the other cases.

Remember that commiting an act that it Makrooh-e-Tahrimi in namaz, makes it wajib to read it again. Please take care of all these things.


The Options of voting are incomplete as always the admin should also have a option of Disliked.

Bcoz there is a world of difference between Disallowed and Disliked.
My voted wud be for disliked.

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masood
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« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2010, 06:09:07 PM »

Quote

The Options of voting are incomplete as always the admin should also have a option of Disliked.

Bcoz there is a world of difference between Disallowed and Disliked.
My voted wud be for disliked.


Agreed. Added.

The Options were kept in accordance with the original question. But Now we understand that one more option is Necessary.
Hence we modified the Poll.

And we also have given a option of CHANGE VOTE.

Anybody who has voted previously can REMOVE his Vote and Vote again for the new option
If he so wishes.

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